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IRC Conference log

Non Profit Organization (NPO) to Support OpenSource Developers
by Kazunari Hirano
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[khirano] I will start in 5 min., is it ok for you all?
[jrahemipour] Yes, certainly
[khirano] If you want to have Slides of my presentation, please go to get it there:
[khirano] My .sxi is here: http://native-lang.openoffice.org/conference/
[khirano] let me start :)
[khirano] Hi all,
[khirano] Thanks for coming. :)
[khirano] And very sorry for being late to upload my presentation.
[khirano] My .sxi is here: http://native-lang.openoffice.org/conference/
[khirano] I have been travelling around Japan to meet people
[khirano] whom I would like to ask to join, and to discuss with them about vision of NPO, OpenSourcers (tentative name) and our dreams.
[khirano] Becase I think it is very important that NPO founders trust each other.
[khirano] I have just been back from Tokyo.
[khirano] OK, let me start my presentation.
[khirano] Slide 1:
[khirano] My talk will be on Non Profit Organization (NPO) to Support OpenSource Developers
[khirano] Slide 2:
[khirano] My talk will be short. I would like to have your advises and comments, more time for Q & A and discussion.
[khirano] After my presentation I have questions for you.
[khirano] Please think about these questions while seeing, listening my presentation.
[khirano] My questions are:
[khirano] What NPO law do you have in your country?
[khirano] Are you planning to establish an NPO?
[khirano] Do you know contributors, developers or translators who need financial or material help?
[khirano] What do they need, What do they want?
[khirano] Why are you working for OpenOffice.org the product and the community?
[khirano] What is your motivation?
[khirano] Do you think that money can help OpenSource development? :)
[khirano] Here is the Agenda
[khirano] Speaker Introductions
[khirano] Japan
[khirano] OpenOffice.org Ja Native Language Project
[khirano] Japan OpenOffice.org Users Group
[khirano] What we really need
[khirano] What if we have money
[khirano] NPO Law in Japan
[khirano] NPO Activity
[khirano] and Q & A
[khirano] Slide 3:
[khirano] My name is Kazunari Hirano.
[khirano] When I introduce myself with my full name in Japanese,
[khirano] I say my family name first, and then my given name,
[khirano] so I say, my name is Hirano Kazunari.
[khirano] We use Chinese Characters.
[khirano] We can't express well without using them.
[khirano] Chinese Characters are ideogram.
[khirano] When we see it, we can imagine what it means.
[khirano] In my name you can see a Chinese Character "One," very easy one to understand :)
[khirano] My name literally means, "Plain Field, One Success."
[khirano] Slide 4: Japan
[khirano] I made this Japan language map based on information given by:
[khirano] http://www.ethnologue.com/show_country.asp?name=JP
[khirano] I don't think it's a correct map
[khirano] because their information is old and often incorrect
[khirano] but it's ok, one of the very interesting view on languages in Japan.
[khirano] I am a member of the OpenOffice.org Japanese Native Language Project,
[khirano] I am a Japanese living in Japan.
[khirano] I am an OpenOffice.org blogger :)
[khirano] http://openoffice.exblog.jp/
[khirano] There you can see my face :)
[khirano] Japan is often called Japanese archipelago or Japanese islands.
[khirano] Bigger islands are Hokkaido, Honshu, Shikoku and Kyushu.
[khirano] I live in "Ichinoseki" City, "Iwate" Prefecture,
[khirano] northern part of Japan Main Island, "Honshu."
[khirano] Slide 5:
[khirano] Japanese Native Language Project
[khirano] Ja NLP membership
[khirano] http://ja.openoffice.org/servlets/ProjectMemberList
[khirano] We have around 800 observers registered and around 20 developers registered.
[khirano] We form OpenOffice.org Japan Users Group, core of which is OpenOffice.org Japanese Native Language Project.
[khirano] For this group we have 15 managing staffs,
[khirano] core of which are OpenOffice.org Japanese Native Language Project members who have signed JCA and have commit rights.
[khirano] The Users Group has a users mailing list outside the OpenOffice.org Japanese Native Language Project to embrace as many users as possible,
[khirano] which is openoffce@freeml.com
[khirano] It has Near 3,000 subscribers
[khirano] Sure we have Project Mailing Lists:
[khirano] We use discuss@ja.openoffice.org to discuss about management of the group, marketing, events, and general questions regarding OpenOffice.org
[khirano] We use translate@ja.openoffice.org for translation works, translation collaboration with Sun Microsystems, OpenOffice.org translation bug reporting etc.
[khirano] Slide 6:
[khirano] OpenOffice.org Japan Users Group
[khirano] It is just a group.
[khirano] We don't know who are members.
[khirano] It is not a legal entity.
[khirano] All activity is based on volunteers.
[khirano] We don't have accounting function.
[khirano] We can't receive money.
[khirano] When we need money or have a chance to receive money,
[khirano] we ask an individual, a staff member, to voluntarily open a bank account.
[khirano] The group often creates OpenOffice.org CDs and distributes free to people at events and conferences in Japan.
[khirano] When we organized the OpenOffice.org Conference Japan 2005,
[khirano] a company wanted to contribute to us.
[khirano] A staff member asked a CD manufacturer to press hundreds of OpenOffice.org CDs and pay for them.
[khirano] And after the conference, the company donate the amount of money what he paid to his own account.
[khirano] This was heavy burden and risk for him.
[khirano] Slide 7:
[khirano] What we really need
[khirano] We don't want money.
[khirano] We want People
[khirano] We want Developers
[khirano] We want Translators
[khirano] We want Contributors
[khirano] We want Motivated people
[khirano] We want to have quality OpenOffice.org
[khirano] We want to contribute to society
[khirano] We want Communication
[khirano] We want to Help people
[khirano] Now do we need Money?
[khirano] Slide 8:
[khirano] What if we have money
[khirano] We don't work for money. :)
[khirano] But what if we have money:
[khirano] We can get more contributors, developers and translators.
[khirano] Skilled developers are busy. :)
[khirano] We can ask developers to share their time.
[khirano] Tools are needed for development.
[khirano] We can provide them with equipments.
[khirano] Developers need information and exchange of ideas.
[khirano] We can help them go to conferences.
[khirano] We can do a lot of activity you can imagine :)
[khirano] Marketing activitiy, Organizing activity....
[khirano] Slide 9:
[khirano] NPO Law in Japan
[khirano] It was enacted on Dec. 1, 1998 and revised on May 1, 2003.
[khirano] The revised law simplified the application and grant process.
[khirano] Under the NPO law, Japanese government grants a volunteer group as a legal entity
[khirano] What is benefits to become an NPO, a legal entity
[khirano] Can open a bank account as a group
[khirano] Can open an office as a group
[khirano] Can register its real property as a group
[khirano] Can perform other various legal action as a group
[khirano] Slide 10:
[khirano] The NPO law provides Authorized NPO.
[khirano] National Tax Agency grants an Authorized NPO.
[khirano] If individuals and organizations donate to the Authorized NPO, they don't have to pay tax for the donation.
[khirano] The law provides expansion of tax breaks for donations.
[khirano] It facilitates individuals, companies and other organizations to danate to NPOs :)
[khirano] Slide 11:
[khirano] NPO requirements
[khirano] NPO must have certain purposes
[khirano] such as promotions for welfare, social education,
[khirano] for local community, academic and scientific research,
[khirano] for environment, security, human rights, children,
[khirano] for information society, economic revitalization,
[khirano] for employment, consumer protection, etc..,
[khirano] which benefit general public
[khirano] NPO is like a company
[khirano] A company makes money for profit.
[khirano] NPO makes money but not for profit,
[khirano] which means NPO members don't share profit.
[khirano] Not more than 1/3 of board members get compensation.
[khirano] NPO must have at least 3 bord members and 1 auditor.
[khirano] Slide 12:
[khirano] NPO should have Business Plan:
[khirano] They may be:
[khirano] OpenSource Software Development
[khirano] OpenSource Software Localization
[khirano] Translation
[khirano] Publication (e.g."OpenOffice.org Magazine" with CD)
[khirano] Design Usable and Beautiful Computers
[khirano] Research
[khirano] User support
[khirano] Consulting
[khirano] Events, Conferences, Campaign, Fundraising
[khirano] Slide 13:
[khirano] We will find out good, skilled, honest contributors,
[khirano] developers and translators from OpenSouce communities and other fields.
[khirano] We will meet them and discuss what they want to do,
[khirano] what they need and what we can do together
[khirano] to develop OpenOffice.org and other OpenSource Software.
[khirano] We encourage them to work together and provide them with what they need by giving them resources, information, money, etc.
[khirano] We encourage them to join our activity and dispatch them to the conference by giving them transportation and accomodation.
[khirano] Slide 14:
[khirano] I would like to focus on Translation Works.
[khirano] Translation is essential to Japanese OpenSource Communities.
[khirano] to provide developers with information
[khirano] for good communication with world developers
[khirano] to motivate developers to join development works
[khirano] For example: TCM (Test Case Maintenance)
[khirano] When 1.9.79 test, Japanese Version TCM registered testers were 3,
[khirano] as TCM test cases was all in English.
[khirano] Then TCM test cases have been translated in Japanese.
[khirano] 1.9.95 Japanese Version testers increased to 11.
[khirano] Japanese Translation facilitates Japanese contributors and developers to join OpenOffice.org activity.
[khirano] Slide 15:
[khirano] What would the NPO like to do in future?
[khirano] to help world OpenSource developers
[khirano] to help communication and collaboration between various OpenSource communities and businesses
[khirano] OpenOffice.org Aynu Localization
[khirano] OpenOffice.org Klingon Localization
[khirano] Verious localization works
[cloph] ??
[khirano] Host OpenOffice.org Conference in Japan
[khirano] and to help all the projects you can imagine.. :)
[khirano] correction: Various localization works
[khirano] I would like to add some future projects to the slide.
[khirano] Under the NPO law, NPO can establish a school.
[khirano] So the NPO would make a school to educate OpenSource developers and send them to the society.
[khirano] cloph: let us talk about Klingon later :)
[DanielC] :-)
[khirano] So the NPO would make a school to educate OpenSource developers and send them to the society.
[khirano] And the NPO can set up a research institute for OpenSource Software, attached to the school.
[khirano] Slide 16:
[khirano] Thanks for your attention and Q & A :)
[khirano] simple questions please :)
[cloph] So what about klingon? Do you really meant the klingon from the enterprise-series?
[khirano] cloph: yes!
[cloph] I really wonder who will (or better can) use an Office Suite in klingon... :-)
[khirano] cloph: so let us talk about it later, one reason is that it is fun!
[khirano] that's all, and I can think of marketing purpose :)
[gautehk] Thanks, khirano, this was both interesting and familiar because we already have a foundation/NPO that funds OOo work in Norway. Where will the Japanese NPO get money?
[cloph] ..But according to german wikipedia it is a registered language! And there even is a wikipedia in klingon :-) but enough about this... Sorry for disturbing/being off-topic :-)
[DanielC] khirano: Is this the Q&A now?
[khirano] gautehk: the NPO do business and ask companies and local governments, japanese government to donate.
[gautehk] khirano: Sounds very familiar (and sensible)
[khirano] the NPO publishes magazines and others, and sell them.
[khirano] the NPO collect membership fee, also.
[khirano] cloph: it's ok. I want to discuss about it later :)
[gautehk] khirano: who are members? Individuals or large-scale users (companies/organizations/government)
[khirano] gautehk: Both
[khirano] they would be members. they can join the NPO as individuals and organizations.
[khirano] And membership fees would vary
[khirano] the NPO can decide the membership fee for individuals and organizations.
[jrahemipour] khirano: Do the NPO members get an allowance for their work?
[khirano] the NPO can employ staffs, who would be paid, allowance.
[DanielC] It could employ developers and documentation writers! :-)
[khirano] DanielC: right!
[DanielC] :-)
[DanielC] I'd like that a lot. I think it would help OOo to have more developers, and in particular, some who aren't tied to any company.
[DanielC] Even if we don't hire people full time, if we just hire a couple of guys part time, that would be something.
[DanielC] Or we could work on commission.
[DanielC] Like, get someone to write SVG import. :-)
[khirano] DanielC: thanks for good ideas
[DanielC] Yeah, that might work well. Comission would work for a beginning NPO.
[DanielC] khirano: Is your NPO setup already?
[gautehk] For comparison, here's briefly what we do: The Norwegian foundation employs part-time translators. It has no membership fee. Some of the board members represent large-scale users.
[khirano] NOT YET!
[DanielC] ok
[cloph] SVG-import already exists as a xslt-based solution (at least it was started)
[DanielC] cloph: Yeah, but it needs work.
[DanielC] gautehk: You have an NPO already?
[gautehk] DanielC: yes, for a year or so
[DanielC] cool.
[DanielC] Do you now other projects that do too?
[DanielC] I think I heard that French NL has one.
[jrahemipour] khirano: Don`t you think there will be conflicts of interest if there are developers who are employed and others who are not?
[DanielC] jrahemipour: How so?
[khirano] jrahemipour: I am thinking about it too.
[gautehk] Volunteers do the fun stuff, paid employees do the boring work. (Basically :-)
[khirano] So we will meet developers and ask them whether they want to be supported or not.
[khirano] and the NPO will open all the information it has, whom it supports and others
[jrahemipour] Germany has such a NPO too... but we have problems to separate between "NPO interests" and "own business interests" of the members
[khirano] jrahemipour: the NPO will help their communication and understanding
[jrahemipour] Its not the problem of the members, more the critical voices you hear in the de-community
[khirano] jrahemipour: yes, it is. we have to think about it. but I think we can solve the question by communication and mutual understanding
[jrahemipour] Whats about the ja-community? How does they think about it?
[khirano] Not all the people among ja-community think that the NPO is the best solution
[jrahemipour] khirano: Yes, thats right. Communication between community an NPO is very important. It`s very important to have strict rules how to handle with the earned money
[khirano] The present ja-community can not handle money at all.
[jrahemipour] khirano: Do they have alternatives? Or do they think, its not important to handle with money?
[khirano] But we know we have to have some measure to handle money and to further develop our works and community
[khirano] jrahemipour: No, they don't have alternatives, I think.
[jrahemipour] khirano: That`s true... we concentrate on marketing activities at the moment, I don`t think, we can manage it in the next years to employ people
[khirano] I think they are OK with present situation to do the same as past.
[khirano] But I think we have to do more to keep the community survive and be active.
[khirano] Actually it is difficult to keep motivation of developers and translators among ja-community.
[jrahemipour] khirano: How did the qa-community increase in the last two years? Do you know, how many observers and developers you had 2 years before?
[khirano] jrahempour: I don't know exactly how many
[gautehk] khirano: I can imagine motivation being difficult. OOo is a lot harder to work on than most other open source projects.
[khirano] but OpenOffice.org development so far is itself very interesting and we got many users.
[DanielC] khirano: I guess it's an issue of making it easier for developers who are already interested to not be distracted by "work".
[DanielC] khirano: Kind of like what they did for Linus.
[khirano] DanielC: it is true :)
[DanielC] hhmm... maybe this also leads into "who do we hire?"
[DanielC] The NPO would hire people who have been working for a while and have shown commitment.
[khirano] it is the most important question.
[DanielC] But that wouldn't address problems like hiring someone to finish SVG import. That is, problems for which no current member can help.
[DanielC] It's a difficult question. Discussion is good.
[khirano] We have to meet them and discuss.
[khirano] To meet them, we have to travel, we need money :)
[DanielC] :-)
[DanielC] If you focus on local developers it might be easier.
[DanielC] Or... you can arrange for "potentials" to go to OOoCon.
[DanielC] Hhmm... I like that idea.
[DanielC] Pick a few people who are good contributors and sponsor them to go to OOoCon.
[DanielC] Then meet them there.
[khirano] sounds good.
[DanielC] Even if you don't "hire" them later, you still did something valuable with that money.
[DanielC] You know what I mean.
[khirano] yes, definitely
[DanielC] :-)
[jrahemipour] I only see the problem... "who decides it" and how to prevent, that the others not think to get a raw deal
[Magi] I've heard that SVG is hard to implement? Possibly it can't be done with XSLT at all.
[DanielC] jrahemipour: I guess that you need some sort of committee. So no one person can choose arbitrarily (or be /seen/ to choose arbitrarily).
[khirano] jrahemipour: You have the OpenOffice.org non profit association in German, right?
[DanielC] jrahemipour: But no matter what you do, someone will always be upset.
[DanielC] Magi: I hear that an "ok" filter is doable, but a "complete" filter is very hard.
[DanielC] Magi: But I don't know.
[jrahemipour] khirano: Yes we have... and we have exact this kind of problems with it
[khirano] jrahemipour: I would like to share knowledge and activity with yours
[DanielC] jrahemipour: How do you decide right now?
[jrahemipour] DanielC: We don`t decide much at the moment. We focus on marketing activities. We pay for things, the members had to pay for theirselves before
[DanielC] jrahemipour: Ok. That's still a good way to spend the money. You don't *have* to hire people.
[DanielC] (IMHO)
[jrahemipour] We have a "board of directors" (Vorstand), who decides, how to spend the money... we are 3 persons
[DanielC] I see.
[jrahemipour] DanielC: But its always the problem, not to be inequitable
[DanielC] jrahemipour: I don't envy your position. No matter what you do, someone will be unhappy.
[jrahemipour] But we surely spend money for community members who are not members of the NPO
[DanielC] So all one can do is minimize the number of unhappy people.
[DanielC] ok
[DanielC] Perhaps it's safer to "sponsor" people so they spend less money themselves? Like taking them to OOoCon.
[jrahemipour] But this is a problem too... we have laws, that we are not allowed to spend too much money for non-members
[DanielC] jrahemipour: Do you have a lot of complaints over how DE-NL spends money?
[jrahemipour] DanielC: Yes, we had terrible discussions about it in the beginning of this year
[DanielC] :-(
[gautehk] (unstable network ...)
[jrahemipour] But it was at a time we did not spend much money at all. We were at the beginning of our activities... and it slowed down our motivation...
[DanielC] jrahemipour: May I ask what the money argument was about? Or do you prefer to not discuss it?
[hfischer] This is hot stuff.
[DanielC] ok
[DanielC] let's not get into it then.
[jrahemipour] DanielC: No, its ok! But I don`t know the arguments exactly.
[DanielC] ok
[hfischer] I for myself can't explain the discussions exactly.
[cloph] The main problem with this whole discussion was that it was not arguments that were discussed but personalities.
[jrahemipour] cloph: Yes, that`s right
[DanielC] :(
[DanielC] But that's not a fundamental problem with NPO's. That can happen with any kind of decison.
[jrahemipour] Its a problem to get active people for the work at a NPO... the others mistrusts them and think, they only have personal interests
[DanielC] oh
[khirano] Trust, it is important.
[DanielC] Yes.
[cloph] The only "money" related thing was that there was a sponsered weekend in a hotel (the owner of the hotel sponsored the stay, the members only had to pay for food/drinking). Members of the e.V. had to bay 5 € less. But this really was a very marginal point of the discussion.
[hfischer] For me was the foundation of the german NPO not really anchored at the online community. The right communication between a very active group and the online volunteers was missing. So I think. That is my personal opinion, I speak only for my self.
[DanielC] hfischer: So they felt left out.
[hfischer] Yes, I think so.
[DanielC] Ok.
[DanielC] Well... we've learned something. That when you setup an NPO it's important to involve as much of the community as you can.
[DanielC] And not just do it yourself.
[hfischer] DanielC: Yes.
[jrahemipour] We didn´t do it ourself in germany. But not all community members noticed it
[jrahemipour] Its a difficult topic... involving the community is very important, but you have to make a decision sometime
[hfischer] It is a arduous way to communicate special facts all over the net and through mailinglists. Some people want to get results very quick, but that is not even possible in a online community who could speak together realtime.
[khirano] hfischer: it's true.
[AietKolkhi] Hello DanielC, Khirano, Helga and everybody. I am sorry I was not able to join earlier. The topic seemedvery interesting, so I will have to see the logs I guess :)
[jrahemipour] We talked about the foundation for more than 2 Years...
[DanielC] AietKolkhi: Good to see you.
[DanielC] jrahemipour: That seems like plenty of time...
[DanielC] Of course, I don't know the details.
[khirano] jrahemipour: you started a local foundation actually, it is a good progress.
[khirano] we start a NPO in Japan and would get some experience.
[jrahemipour] Another point is, that the people who are not only working online, spent a lot of money for fairs and so on, so they saw many good reasons
[khirano] We can share our knowledge and many things.
[jrahemipour] khirano: Yes, certainly. Feel free to ask, if you have questions!
[khirano] jrahemipour: yes I will :)
[khirano] I am happy to get some good ideas and experience here :)
[jrahemipour] khirano: Will you attend the next OOoCon?
[khirano] the NPO would start next month
[khirano] I hope. I am writing Business Plan of the NPO now:)
[jrahemipour] khirano: Oh, good! Please don`t hesitate to contact us
[khirano] I will make another presentation about the NPO's experience.
[jrahemipour] That would be very interesting
[khirano] OK, thanks all, I will go to bed now.
[khirano] May I see you all at the next OpenOffice.org Conference?
[jrahemipour] khirano: Goodnight! And thanks for the interesting presentation
[DanielC] khirano: Good night!
[khirano] Are you coming? to France or Slovenia?
[DanielC] Thank you for the talk!
[khirano] you are welcome
[khirano] DanielC: I am helped by you :)
[DanielC] :)
[jrahemipour] khirano: Yes, I will be there...
[khirano] my pleasure, all, thanks, good night.
[gautehk] khirano: Thanks for the talk. It's quite possible I'll come too.
[DanielC] jrahemipour: Maybe I'll be there this year too. :-)
[DanielC] I'd love to meet everyone.
[jrahemipour] DanielC: That would be fine
[khirano] gautehk: that's good! I will see you face-to-face. it will be nice.
[hfischer] khirano: Thank you for this presentation. It was very interesting for me.
[DanielC] clap clap clap clap clap clap
[DanielC] :-)
[hfischer] clap clap clap clap clap clap
[khirano] Thanks all, again, and I am looking forward to seeing you face-to-face, offline :)
[DanielC] yeah
[khirano] I would like to hear your voices :)
[jrahemipour] khirano: Ciao...
[khirano] I would like to shake hands with you.
[khirano] good night, all
[hfischer] Good Night.
[jrahemipour] Bye all...
[DanielC] bye
[DanielC] thank you for comming
[DanielC] Nice "meeting" you.
[DanielC] :-)
[jrahemipour] dito :-)
[jrahemipour] "See" you next time...
[DanielC] yeah
[DanielC] bye bye
[DanielC] :)