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IRC Conference log

Life of one NL project
Hristo Hristov
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[AgnesB] let's start
[IcoBgr] Well, I hope to enjoy the show :-)
[southerncross] go on!
[IcoBgr] == Slide 1 ==
[IcoBgr] First of all, I want to apologize for my English that may not be as good as yours
[IcoBgr] My speech is dedicated to the history of our project for localization of OpenOffice.org, which became at one point a Native-Language Project
[IcoBgr] ==Next Slide 2 ==
[IcoBgr] These are the topics which I will write about. They covers how it started, what difficulties we had in our work, some resolves which we made for most of them, our future plans and some conclusions which I made as a result of my work till today :-)
[IcoBgr] == Next Slide 3 ==
[IcoBgr] If I'm fast tell me please
[IcoBgr] This is a brief info about me :-)
[IcoBgr] I'm working as Java programmer, mostly making the GUI of back-ends.
[IcoBgr] In my free time I'm working on our project (my wife is not very joyful about this sometimes). My work is very heterogeneous. I assist in localization, maintain the web pages of the project, before version 2.0 I made the builds but now Bulgarian is included in Pavel's build script, so I only update the GSI file.
[IcoBgr] == Next Slide 4 ==
[IcoBgr] Here is the core of our team. Also there are other members who tests the builds and they are not included here because they are not permanently occupied. We are small team but I hope to become bigger in the future.
[IcoBgr] The first one is Michail Balabanov who is our expert of translation and who is one of the authors of Translation of UI in Bulgarian specification. With a little proud I can tell that our project is the first one which started to use this specification.
[ericb2] hi :-)
[IcoBgr] The second one, Sergei Dimitrov, is our new member of the team. He helped a lot for translation of OOo 2.0. Also he is helping with translation of articles for our most familiar web portal for Linux.
[IcoBgr] Radostin Radnev, the third one, is living and working in German and helping us with dictionaries (spell checking, hyphenation, thesaurus).
[IcoBgr] The fourth is Plamen Nikolov, he helped in localization of OOo 1.1.x but now he is very busy to assist, so maybe he will leave us soon.
[IcoBgr] == Next Slide 5 ==
[IcoBgr] The beginning of my inclusion in OOo work was the internationalization of OpenOffice.org in Bulgarian. That was after OOo 1.0. In this version were decided to be removed languages without local from the list of default languages for the document in the Settings.
[IcoBgr] That made using of our spell dictionary more complicated. So I wrote the local for Bulgarian and after a couple redactions and consulting with other people, it was ready. But because we missed the dead-line it wasn't included in the next version.
[IcoBgr] It was includet in 1.1.3
[IcoBgr] So, that was the beginning. After that I decided to translate OOo in Bulgarian, so more people who doesn't know English to start use it.
[IcoBgr] At the beginning I started to do it by myself, but after an advice from Radostin, I searched for some activities in that direction from other people.
[IcoBgr] I found that there was started procedure about localization but near the end of finishing with translation of the Glossary it has been stood still.
[IcoBgr] After some messages from me to revive the work, I contacted with the leader of the localization and because he was very busy he proposed me to step back the leadership to me. After a little thinking that if we don't do the work by ourself, nobody will do ti, I agreed to lead the localization. Of course we used what have been translated from the Glossary in our work.
[IcoBgr] I read the instruction in the l10n project and made the necessary patches for extracting and importing the strings and after some unsuccessful attempts and corrections I succeeded to extract the GSI file.
[IcoBgr] At the same time, I posted on couple web sites invitations for translators.
[IcoBgr] Also Radostin Radnev informed me that there has been created a specification for translation of GUI in Bulgarian from Michail Balabanov and Anton Zinoviev (thanks a lot people). I read it and I liked to have a rules for the localization. So, our project was the first one which started to use this specification in real.
[IcoBgr] When we started localization there was no tools for converting the GSI file into po files. So, we had to relay on ourself. At first time I split the file in a little peaces by lines number to be more easy for translation and at second time I made a little Java program to split the GSI by modules. Michail Balabanov made a little program with simple database to help the process of translation.
[IcoBgr] == Slide 6 ==
[IcoBgr] After the translation of the interface finished, using of the OpenOoffice.org start to grow.
[IcoBgr] We were happy when we released first official version with full localized UI which was OpenOffice.org 1.1.2
[IcoBgr] When that happened, of course we announced this on the most famous web site for Linux in Bulgaria, a lot of people start to use it.
[IcoBgr] Of course there were a lot of mistakes in the translation and they were fixed in the next versions 1.1.3 and 1.1.4
[IcoBgr] At this point we realized that we had to find a place where these people can ask their questions, a place where they can search for help, a place where they can report mistakes and bugs.
[IcoBgr] I gathered the achievements which we had and they were: localized UI, dictionaries for spell, hyphenation and thesaurus.
[IcoBgr] So, I plucked up courage and sent proposal of Bulgarian Native-Language Project
[IcoBgr] Of course at first it was refused with the motive that a NLP is not only localization but also support, marketing and etc in short words we have to make a community and then NPL.
[IcoBgr] sorry :-) NPL = NLP
[IcoBgr] Well, I didn't give up and continued the fight for our NPL. I explained that we had to have a some place where to build that community and trowing strength to build that community on other place and after that to move all things on OOo site is useless.
[IcoBgr] So, leaders of NLC changed the rules of proposal for the NLP and set these two levels of NL projects which we have now. I think that this is better for all NL projects because as it is now every new NL project can make their start here in the OpenOffice.org website.
[IcoBgr] After this change the Bulgarian team was happy to have own NL Project created on 14.10.2004.
[IcoBgr] == Slide 7 ==
[IcoBgr] Difficulties. Oh, boy. Nobody loves them but they are there and we have to resolve them :-)
[IcoBgr] The first hindrance was that we needed a rules how to translate.
[IcoBgr] That was very important to have because without rules the work didn't go.
[IcoBgr] The Glossary have been translated without rules and on one point a lot of arguments of how to be translated one or other term stopped the whole thing.
[IcoBgr] So, for my luck when I get in my hands the leadership, there was already created the Specification for translation of GUI in Bulgarian, including some small dictionary of frequently used terms, so we didn't waste time to make such rules.
[IcoBgr] The second difficulties was that we needed a place to store the files for translation.
[IcoBgr] The first place was http://sourceforge.net/projects/lug-bg/
[IcoBgr] We join to that project on SourceForge which was for all kinds of translations. With this project we worked for all OOo 1.1.x versions.
[IcoBgr] Before starting localization of OOo 2.0 I decide to move the stuff on other place. SourceForge servers are outside Bulgaria and the Internet connections with servers outside the Bulgaria was very slow and this impeded the work.
[IcoBgr] The second place became http://sciforge.org/projects/ooo-bg/
[IcoBgr] For our luck SciForge was created a little earlier before starting localization of 2.0 version. The server is here in Bulgaria and the connection with it is faster. Also the communications with the owner of the server are more easy-going when I have some needs of something to be changed or to include new service.
[IcoBgr] The biggest problem which we have till today and we cannot find an easy resolve for it, are long strings. Sometimes a short string in English translated in Bulgarian becomes more longer. And because the GUI didn't use layouts, such string have been cut. Most of the times we do our best to figure out some shorter translation, but sometimes it cannot be done, so we use abbreviation. It is not very g
[IcoBgr] ood solution but there is no solution for know.
[IcoBgr] know = now
[IcoBgr] I read in the summer coding activities that there is a plane for using of layouts and I hope this to be done soon for our good.
[IcoBgr] Other problem, which was resolved from a couple of months, was a place to gather and informing people for the great product OpenOffice.org.
[IcoBgr] We have web pages in Bulgarian on the website of OOo so everybody which not familiar with foreign languages can read for the great product OOo.
[IcoBgr] We have forums where they can ask their questions for help, we have mail lists as for localization work (and some day maybe developing :-)) as for discussions.
[IcoBgr] A little problem about forums is that you have to be registered if you want to read them. I think that registration is needed only if somebody wants to write in a forum but not for reading. Anyway this can be discussed :-)
[IcoBgr] Other big problem is piracy.
[IcoBgr] It is our enamy too, but this is very long theme for discuss and maybe in the future we can discuss it.
[IcoBgr] == Slide 8 ==
[IcoBgr] The big plans :-)
[IcoBgr] Well, I have a lot of plans for the future and I hope that they will come true step by step :-)
[IcoBgr] First of all it is important to have someone to distribute CDs with OpenOffice.org
[IcoBgr] For now we have only one firm willing to do that, which is Confidential Information Technologies, but I supposes that after release of OOo 2.0 more firms will wish to include a CD in their productions.
[IcoBgr] It is also important to introduce the new 2.0 version to the people.
[IcoBgr] Confidential Information Technologies has a plan to make an introduction of the new version after its release.
[IcoBgr] Lectures of how to use OpenOffice.org also will be very good thing to happened. But first we have to finish with translation of the Help of OOo.
[IcoBgr] Books is a good idea too. Here in Bulgaria still do not have books for the OOo in Bulgarian and people want such.
[IcoBgr] With grow of popularity of the OOo it is important to give a support for firms and corporations.
[IcoBgr] Because we are not a great many people, for now I planned to gather information of IT firms which can give a support and to post that information of the website of our project. Thus every firm which needs support can find the information easier.
[IcoBgr] == Slide 9 ==
[IcoBgr] In my work with OOo I learned these:
[IcoBgr] - Never do all things alone :)
[IcoBgr] It is very hard to do everything alone. Better is to share the work with others.
[IcoBgr] - Be patient and all will come on his time
[IcoBgr] A long time our local was not included in the source but with patient it happened.
[IcoBgr] There was problems with creating the NLP, but this happened too.
[IcoBgr] So, patient and endeavor are the keys.
[IcoBgr] - Ask people to help you and they will
[IcoBgr] This is the hard part :-) You have to be very convincing :-)
[IcoBgr] - Gain more people to join the team so more work to be done
[IcoBgr] When we have more volunteers helping the project more work will be done and we will have success.
[IcoBgr] - Translations needs rules to be a good one
[IcoBgr] When there do not have rules for translation, the process can stopped because of a lot of controversies as it has been happened when I started my lead.
[IcoBgr] - People needs a leader to remind them that there is work to be done :-)
[IcoBgr] I figure that people have to be pushed sometimes :-) because in their daily round they forget that there are time limits.
[IcoBgr] - Meetings with other translation teams which will help to have equal translations of terms in different programs (like KDE team, GNOME team and others)
[IcoBgr] It is good the programs to use the same translation of equals terms. If each program use different translation of terms the users will be very confused when he use them.
[IcoBgr] - Good tools to help translation process
[IcoBgr] Good tools helps the work to be done easy and fast. Now when we have po files it is more easy for translation because we can use programs like KBabel, poEdit, GTranslator and others tools for translation which can collect translations in the databases for auto translation functions.
[IcoBgr] == Slide 10 ==
[IcoBgr] OK, that's all from me. You are free to ask :-)
[southerncross] bravo!
[khirano] IcoBgr: Thanks!
[IcoBgr] Thanks :)
[AgnesB] Thanks a lot IcoBrg, it was really interesting
[Zero_Dogg] :)
[Rail] it was very useful speech
[khirano] IcoBgr: I am especially impressed by what you have learned
[southerncross] The Bulgarian NL project should be an example of how to create and open a NL project, build a community and make the product successful
[southerncross] Hristo stirred a small revolution amonf the NLC, but we didn't regret it at all :-)
[Rail] :)
[AgnesB] I agree, and it was really interesting to see the process, step after step, always keeping courage , even when difficult times came
[southerncross] I have a few other comments to make: Hristo and his team were patient and hard-working, and these are the two virtues that we're looking for NLC members
[southerncross] I hope, that, when dealing with companies, Hristo will prove to be not only efficient, and should I say, a good salesman, but also it is important not to fall dependant on one of these businesses
[southerncross] I'm sure you guys will do it fine though :-)
[southerncross] I have a question: why are you concerned about piracy?
[IcoBgr] My bigges dream is to convince our country administration to use OOo :)
[AgnesB] yes I asked me that question too
[southerncross] IcoBgr: I'm sure we can talk about that on dev@native-lang...
[southerncross] thing: hello Soren!
[IcoBgr] Because here in Bulgaria the pirace is... how to say.. like life
[IcoBgr] Moste of windows users do not care
[IcoBgr] Because our salaries are small and few people can buy programs the prefere to download the from some warez site
[southerncross] okay, but how is OOo affected by that?
[IcoBgr] It is because of MS Office
[Zero_Dogg] instead of pirating MSOffice they can use OOo
[Zero_Dogg] legally
[IcoBgr] If they can get MS Office without paing why should twy learn and use OOo
[IcoBgr] twy = they
[southerncross] I see
[IcoBgr] Piracy is a big problem here. belive me :)
[eskroni] And Microsoft isn't fighting against the piracy?
[IcoBgr] As for comercial software as for open one
[Zero_Dogg] that is actually a very valid point imho, _alot_ of people pirate MS Office, even here.
[IcoBgr] Officialy yes :)
[AgnesB] it's so hard to try to change people's mind
[Zero_Dogg] Microsoft fights piracy, but I believe they would rather see someone use a pirated version of MS Office rather than using OOo
[southerncross] In France there was an interesting initiative from the FOSS-movements about piracy
[IcoBgr] But I read one speach of Billy where he said for chinees that it doesn't matter that they use piracy copies of MSO, one day he will find the way to get the money
[ericb2] yes, same problem all around the world, and microsoft of course is happy of this behaviour
[southerncross] The government wanted to fight piracy a few months ago, and the FOSS organizations actively... backed Microsoft by requesting the accurate and exact display of prices for each of software and hardware
[southerncross] example: you buy a PC. What FOSS associations requested is that the full price of Windows would not appear in the overall price, but aside of it, so that people can see how expensive Windows is (and not the computer itself), and so that they start to install Linux
[TonyP] There are circumstances where piracy is not an option, for example, the Brazilian governments IT literacy initiatives.
[IcoBgr] Yes they are a good example
[TonyP] Could your govt afford hundreds of MS liceneces if it wants to do the same?
[IcoBgr] TonyP to whom is that Q
[TonyP] Not so much a Q as a comment, sorry
[TonyP] But it does undeline why your work is so important
[IcoBgr] Our govr paied 3 years licens for 30 000 licenses of Windows XP for the administration
[IcoBgr] That was 3 years ago
[southerncross] IcoBgr: do you know if your government is thinking about FOSS (migration, strategy, opportunity, etc.)?
[IcoBgr] It was very big deal and of cource I think the commission too
[IcoBgr] For now, no. The corruption is very big here and commissions are more important for them :(
[IcoBgr] I'm not praud to talk such way for my govr but unfortunately this is the truth
[southerncross] IcoBgr: they will have to change if they want to enter the EU
[IcoBgr] I hope so :)
[IcoBgr] I aslo hope that the software patents will not be accepted in the EU
[khirano] IcoBgr: may be you can start with local governments? city, town, village administrations?
[southerncross] So do we :-/
[IcoBgr] Oh, I forgot :) There is an activitie. It have a test project for instaling open source in the reginal centers
[IcoBgr] For a moment I forgot the organization which doing this.
[IcoBgr] They installs for now translated 1.1.4
[khirano] good news :)
[southerncross] good!
[AgnesB] yeah :-)
[southerncross] It's an important starting point
[IcoBgr] There was some problems about that we translated the formulas in the Calc
[IcoBgr] People used to use English one
[IcoBgr] But I made a version with English names of formuls, so this not a problem anymore
[IcoBgr] Anybody to know when will be release new 2.0 :)
[khirano] NO :)
[southerncross] somewhen around september
[khirano] September!!!!
[khirano] really?
[ericb2] IMHO, after some stopers ar fixed
[southerncross] it doesn't mean that I'll take bids on it...
[khirano] but it is likely ;)
[southerncross] exactly
[southerncross] although it could be earlier of course
[khirano] yes, we know, we have to realease good and nice 2.0 :)
[Rail] IcoBgr, we (Russian NLP) switched to English formulas in Calc, because you need to change your keyboard layout a lot of time if you write complicated formulas (cell addresses always use English notation, like A1, B2)
[southerncross] the whole problem is that the release schedule is a little bit unclear so I tend to use a crystal ball for the sake of clarity...
[southerncross] :-)
[southerncross] anyway
[Rail] I think we don't need 2.0 which made in hurry, stable product is better
[khirano] Rail and IcoBgr: I think if people understand English one, it doesn't have to be translated into your languages.
[IcoBgr] Rail: Is it possible to be included an options in the settings like that for the decimle char
[IcoBgr] Not everybody knows English here
[southerncross] Folks, Hristo, it was very interesting and I would like once ago to thank you for raising the flag of OOo in Bulgaria in such a courageous fashion. My thanks also go to Agnes for keeping the log of this conf. I have to go now, so see you soon on the lists!
[Rail] khirano, advanced users know English formulas, normal users use only sigma sign to get SUM() :-D
[AgnesB] the quality of the product is the most important one, so it's better if we could wait a little more ;-)
[khirano] Rail: I see :)
[Rail] IcoBgr, there is no such setting, but it will be great to ha it
[Rail] ha = have
[IcoBgr] Is it possible to be included an options in the settings like that for the decimle char?
[Rail] IcoBgr, we can raise an issue for such settings in OOo ;)
[IcoBgr] It will b good :)
[Rail] it will be very useful
[khirano] IcoBgr: you said that, if you translate English UI into Bulgarian, it would be longer wording, right?
[khirano] how longer, very long? :)
[IcoBgr] khirano: I didn't understand that :(
[IcoBgr] Can you say it in other way :)
[IcoBgr] The UI is translated alrady and now we translating the Help
[khirano] http://www.transwift.net/aynu/ooo-aynu-draw.png
[khirano] can you see this?
[khirano] Aynu version :)
[khirano] now you can see long translation for "insert" on the menu.
[IcoBgr] one moment
[Rail] I think there must be some params in officecfg for scaling place dedicated to translated string...
[khirano] "data a=okewe wa oro mosma p a=omare" for "insert" :)
[khirano] very long, isn't it? :)
[IcoBgr] khirano: You are talking about the long string?
[khirano] yes, so I thought you have a similar problem :)
[IcoBgr] Yes, we have. I told this in the presentation
[khirano] yes, so I am asking you, how long? very long like "data a=okewe wa oro mosma p a=omare" for "insert"?
[IcoBgr] Most times we have to think shorter translation but there are times where we use abbreviations
[IcoBgr] Not so long :)
[khirano] ok, thanks
[IcoBgr] Menus are not a problem. The problem is in dialogs
[khirano] IcoBgr: yes, right, have you started translating Online Help?
[IcoBgr] What is online help? That in the OOo or other?
[IcoBgr] Do you mean the guid?
[khirano] Online Help in OpenOffice.org the product.
[IcoBgr] yes, we are transalting it now.
[IcoBgr] In the GSI file which I filed for comiting last month we have some translations
[khirano] What tool are you using?
[khirano] Kbabel?
[IcoBgr] mostly poEdit
[khirano] ok, thanks:)
[IcoBgr] because it have version for windows oo
[IcoBgr] oo=too
[khirano] yeh, that's right.
[IcoBgr] but for some files I have to use simple editor
[IcoBgr] because some english strings which are used on different places in Bulgarian we have to translate in different way. So I have one Id for more that one string and poEdit do not like this and crash
[IcoBgr] I know that somebody working ot this problem in oo2po tool
[IcoBgr] ot = on
[IcoBgr] Ok, people. I'm glad to talk here but I have to leav you now because my baby needs me
[Rail] we use web based translation tool with very useful feature - we can build "tagged"
[Rail] builds
[Rail] http://rail.iqchoice.com/ooo_tagged_ru.png
[khirano] I installed m104bulgarian build by Pavel Janik on my machine:)
[Rail] here is tagged build with IDs on the end of the every string
[khirano] http://www.transwift.net/pukiwikiooopukiwiki/?680m104s1s#content_1_1
[khirano] looks good :)
[AgnesB] Thanks a lot IcoBgr
[Rail] and you serach web interface: http://rail.iqchoice.com/ooo_tagged_ru1.png
[IcoBgr] Rail: is it open source?
[TonyP] And thanks from me too! I'm off as well
[AgnesB] IcoBgr: have a great time with your baby
[IcoBgr] AgnesB: thanks :)
[Rail] IcoBgr, of course, it based on ootrans made by Hungarian team
[IcoBgr] I'll look on it
[AgnesB] IcoBgr: :-)
[khirano] IcoBgr: Thanks for your presentation.
[khirano] IcoBgr: I will tell my Aynu localization team what you have learned :)
[khirano] see you all
[khirano] bye now
[AgnesB] bye bye khirano
[eskroni] Sorry, I have to leave now :) I wish you all a good day/evening/night... wherever you are ;)
[Rail] IcoBgr, I think I found the setting for scaling: take a look here: http://www.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=39853
[AgnesB] bye bye eskroni
[Rail] open officecfg/registry/data/org/openoffice/Office/Common.xcu and search for DialogScale
[Rail] IcoBgr, I didn't try to play with it but I think it must help....
[ericb2] bye all, IcoBgr : thank you very much :-)
[Rail] ericb2, bye
[AgnesB] ok friends, I need to leave too now
[IcoBgr] Bye AgnesB
[IcoBgr] thanks for saving the log
[AgnesB] IcoBgr: thanks for your presentation, I've got the logs
[AgnesB] I was happy to do it :-)
[AgnesB] Have a very good one .. bye bye all .. and too the next time
[AgnesB] bye